[Last names intentionally omitted - this is a second part to my original story here.]
I don’t know Tenshi, (I know of her,) I don’t know Minnu, (Never heard of her before now) and I don’t know Danae, (Never heard of her before now,) and I don’t *care*.
So, what I am about to say is regarding the SUBJECT and SITUATION. I’ll use these names because they are involved in this particular situation of this subject. This is based my my research effort and interviews with a lot of people. I admit I could be wrong in my current conclusions and there are still too many ‘openings’ and loose ends to be conclusive.
For me, this is about hearsay and how hearsay can damage good people’s reputations and even go so far as ruin lives, Second lives or otherwise. We see it all the time in real life politics, but we won’t go there.
First a few updates: I have nothing at all against Tenshi. I respect her very much and I really do look up to her. I am impressed with her social success and as always, when someone becomes so popular, there will be those who love you and those who hate you and those who love to hate you and vice-versa.
Apparently, Tenshi accidentally omitted mentioning her attempts to contact Minnu regarding the accusation against her. I have no doubt the adrenalin was flowing rather strongly during the assembly of her story, so I can see how that omission occurred. Unfortunately, it’s a very important piece of information. And I would hope Tenshi edits an update to clarify this omission. I am sure she will, both at her blog and at the Herald.
I also have updated the first couple paragraphs in my original story to better clarify my intended statements, that Tenshi’s original story appears to be defamatory in it’s presentation, and not that it was any intent of hers.
I am also referred to the feedback comments on those blogs for additional information to the original story. However, I believe this ‘argument’ to be moot. Feedback comments are not and, I believe, should never be considered part of the original story. Feedback comments are just that: comments. In other words, opinion after the fact. If new information comes out in the comments, then the original story should be updated with that information. Feedback comments are simply not part of the story in my own belief.
I am not, nor have I ever intended to accuse Tenshi, or anyone else of slander or any other intentional defamation. As I’ve said, I have updated my story to clarify this. My position is that the original story as written appears to be defamatory in nature.
As for Minnu’s past comments on the source or otherwise method of creation of her products – I don’t know and to me it is hearsay and not within the scope on my own story. So, I will leave that one to the legal eagles and set any comments about that to the side.
I do not want to focus on the actual alleged theft per se, but rather on the way the original story as written by Tenshi can have such a profound impact on a lot of people, and in potentially serious misleading ways. That is the thrust on my purview here.
Now, on to my intermediate article:
To be perfectly clear – all of what I am about to say here in this article is my opinion and perspective. It is not my conscious intent to accuse anyone of anything. Furthermore, I feel Tenshi has likely become an unwilling participant in all this, as she was simply reporting a story brought to her. I do feel she has left some very important information out of her original article that give it the appearance of defamation. However, this whole situation has grown way beyond any (if any) direct involvement by Tenshi, other than what I state my beliefs are below.
My determinations in the “Skin Theft” subject of the day are as follows, thus far:
1) Everything here is alleged, not proven. Thus, many of the comments on the blogs and SL Universe and Renderostity threads are strictly rumor and innuendo. They are wrong until proven right – which is backward from how it should be.
2) Using the word “rip-off” or “stolen” or any other word of similar definition is just plain wrong unless convincing evidence is provided, I have not seen any. Yes, the graphic comparisons are there, but they are inconclusive. Purchasing outsourced product to use in your own creations is not theft, unless those sources are obtained illegally to begin with, or your use violates the End User License Agreement (EULA). It is done in SL content creation 90% of the time, both legally and illegally.
3) According to my own research (and I did research – and still at it) – Minnu is fully with-in the EULA that came with the product *IF* she purchased the product from Danae, as that EULA is presented publicly before sale. Unless Danae has a specific EULA that is different from the publicly posted EULA available before purchase, in my mind Danae does not have a legal leg to stand on, unless she can show that her source material was obtained illegally by Minnu.
Burden of proof is on Danae.
Comparison images are not proof. Hence, in my opinion, the reason this “fight” is being carried out in blogs and not in court. It smells to me like a defamation effort. Not necessarily by Tenshi or even Danae, but rather the original, as yet unnamed ‘witness’ that ‘noticed’ the similarities between Minnu’s creations and Danae’s.
Note: there still is a question of whether Minnu’s source material is actually the same source material created by Danae. That is for Danae to prove. Again, comparative imagery is inconclusive.
My observations in the matter based on my own research, and I could be wrong, are as follows (I will write a follow-up story in the next week when I hope to have more definitive factual information):
1) Some SL user who still remains anonymous somehow ‘accidentally‘ noticed Minnus skins look very much like the ones in question from Danae at Renderosity. If it was accidental, it’s one hell of an observant person. If it was not, then there was originally an ‘axe to grind’.
Intended defamation?
My take: most likely an intentional inflammatory gesture – but there is nothing against the rules about intentionally looking for ‘dirt’ on anyone.
2) The still unnamed “witness” contacted Danae at Renderosity to “notify’ Danae that her product is being stolen and used in SL. Either the “Witness” or Danae created the graphic comparisons. This alone strikes me as odd and it seems to indicate a witch-hunt off the get-go.
Questions: were these comparison images created before or after Tenshi was contacted to do the story? Was Minnu contacted directly by the “Witness” before the Witness went to Danae for an opportunity to rebut? Did Danae contact the accused before contacting Tenshi for an opportunity to explain or to demand a cease and desist?
This all looks very suspicious to me.
3) I have lurked the Renderosity forum threads for a few days. This all was basically a non-issue there until a large post (first post, thread started by as far as I can tell) by Tenshi, proclaiming Renderosity material being “stolen” for use in SL, with a link to her story on Shopping Cart Disco – which was already written and publicly available. It was an inflamatory, alarmist posting designed to ‘ruffle feathers’ in my opinion.
This looks highly suspicious to me. It would appear that Tenshi is the initial instigator of this entire drama circus on the Renderosity site. Again, this is the appearance and I could be wrong.
However, because I have made a strong effort to actually research what is really going on with this situation, if I am wrong, every single comment in these forums and blogs here and there also are wrong because it is all opinion (your right) based on what people are saying and without any evidence of fact, whereas I am trying to find actual fact. In other words: potentially damaging hearsay.
4) At first blush, it is likely Minnu is 100% legal, if she actually purchased the product from Renderosity as the EULA’s (that I have been able to find) at Renderosity clearly and easily allow not only those products to be used inside SL, but also to be sold inside SL as long as they are clearly derivative works. Hence, as long as you do not sell the texture images alone – it’s legal.
The EULA’s I have found all describe the same basic fact: in layman’s terms -
Yes, some will point to ‘ripping’ tools that allow you to extrapolate images and textures and all that from SL: i. e. “copybot”.
However, these tools are “hacker” tools and therefore, do not apply to the purchaser of these materials as they have no control over the use of those tools as long as they do not themselves provide those tools. Thus: that point is moot.
5) I have attempted to contact Danae at Renderosity and have yet to hear back from her. Though I admit my attempt may not have been successful as I wasn’t actually logged-in on those attempts. I have sent her several questions that I have not yet received answers to:
B) It is understood the textures may not be resold or otherwise given to another party in orginal or original facsimile (flat image-based) form. That any imagery created with them is licensed to be resold or given provided the derivitive is significant and that the flat original facsimile cannot be easily extrapolated for resale or giving away in original facsimile form. Is this correct? What other restrictions are there, if any?
C) Though your requirements specifically state the Daz 3D product line (Poser, DAZ Studio, etc.) – does your license strictly limit this product to be used with these tools only, or does it allow the purchaser to use them elsewhere, such as Studio 3D, Carrera, Maya or any other 3D rendering application?
D) Are you aware that ‘mapping’ a texture to any polygonal object inside Second Life operates identically in a technical sense to the mapping of a texture to a polygonal object in Poser, DAZ Studio, Carrera and other 3D Applications, though the template and UV is mapped differently against the mesh in each applications case?
E) Have you contacted the alleged infringing party directly, either yourself or via a legal third party to announce a cease and desist notification?
F) Is the license for end user use of your product fully disclosed before purchase?
I also have sent a notecard to Minnu in-world asking for the following questions to be answered and have yet to receive a reply:
[UPDATE: Minnu has returned my contact request. I will continue discussions and include my findings in my final post on this subject, hopefully in the coming week, after Danae has had a chance to respnd.]
B) Regarding this specific situation, if you obtained your source base from other than Renderosity, where from?
C) (If you obtained your source materials through Renderosity) Does the End User License Agreement restrict the use of the materials to a specific purpose or software application – or does it only restrict the distribution of the source material itself? In other words, does the EULA appear to be any different than the one visibly shown before purchasing the materials at Renderosity.com?
Comment: I am trying to determine if your EULA is different (at the time of your acquisition) from the publicly available one, where as a shopper considering those materials for source, I see it as having the right to use those material inside Second Life.
D) Have you retained legal council specifically with regard to this current situation?
I see these as the appropriate questions to have been asked of each party before the original story was written by Tenshi. Though I also understand the urge to get the story out very quickly. If she did pose these or similar questions, then why weren’t the answers (or denial of answering) mentioned in her story at all? Omission by accident or not, I would think that by now, she would have updated her story. Though I am told, in her defense, she is away for the weekend, so the time line to corrections is understandable.
6) Why was Danae referred specifically to Tenshi instead of to the Lindens? This gives me the impression of a witch-hunt, – not necessarily by Tenshi, but rather by the one doing the referring: the unnamed “Witness”- as it is well known that Tenshi has a hugely popular blog and also writes for for the SL Herald tabloid blog, known for its alarmist and sensationalist articles, (hence, my description of “tabloid”.)
7) If Danae has retained legal counsil, why is she participating in feedback of the Shopping Cart Disco blog and others, where anything and everything said there can be used against her in a court of law as a matter of fact and not ‘hearsay’ with regard to her comments?
8 ) Why, if her blog is so popular, would Tenshi repost the story verbatim (save the changing of one inflammatory headline and tag to another inflammatory headline and tag) to the Second Life Herald, a tabloid blog known for its alarmist and sensationalist articles?
In the end, it is my genuine impression on the face of it, not knowing any of these people and trying very hard to remain as neutral as I can, that:
Unless the answers to the questions posed to these individuals are different than expected…
A) The accused is fully within her rights and legal in her activities with regard to the question of legality in the use of these materials – regardless of what the original creator proclaims, providing the source materials were obtained legally.
b) Since the full details of fact regarding how the source materials were obtained and from where, it cannot be claimed as fact that the source materials are “stolen” or “ripped-off” in any form. Benefit of doubt is by law. Burden of proof is on those making the accusation.
c) I have yet to see any proof beyond a ‘reasonable doubt’ – thus making all the comments and statements made to this point: *defamatory* in my opinion.
I am not a lawyer and I have no legal experience, other than I know my rights and I also know my rights are the same right you and everyone else has.
As for Minnu not making statements or other comments, it is likely one of two things: remain quiet and let it all blow-over, or follow legal council and let it all out in legal proceedings in a court of law.
People simply do not realize – regardless of what you think Renderosity or Second Life is – game or not – there are real life legal issues here at play and it can be very dangerous if you simply throw words around without much thought. Especially when it comes to Intellectual Property and accusations of theft in any form.
As for purchasing source material from Renderosity or anywhere else, unless the EULA specifically is strict enough with regard to the use of those materials – it is perfectly acceptable to use those materials in the creation of content with-in Second Life.
In the end, it all looks to me, at this point, to be a witch-hunt that has turned into a smear campaign and the good people of Renderosity and SL Universe and other blog readers are being swept-up in the dramatic nonsense and willingly or unwillingly participating.
Now, to add to the confusion: I have received a lot of information from many people, blog links, IM quotes and all that stuff. It would be far from me to proclaim Minnu, or Tenshi as angels. Hey, we all are human.
In fairness, I have recently reviewed many of Tenshi’s past blog articles where Minnu was the subject. None are really anything special with regard to any kind of appearance to a ‘defamation’ sense. In fact, they all look like genuine and, perhaps a bit elitist, fair criticisms of some of Minnu’s creations. In fact, one was a detailed and fair retraction of an article created previously.
My point is that I do not think Tenshi a bad person, neither do I look down my nose at her or anyone else. However, a situation such as this particular one can become very volatile, very fast. I’d hate to see good people get wrapped-up in serious business that could hurt them. And I am speaking of all the parties involved.
Tensions are high and with that, words and accusations will fly. Personally, I really do hope all the parties involved will find an amicable way out of this mess and we all can go back to ripping on Linden Lab about the crappy way Second Life frustrates the hell out of us on a daily basis. :)
As for me – I prefer to remain up in the clouds maintaining as neutral as possible a view on the whole picture.
I expect to write a final ‘chapter’ on this issue in the coming week after the parties whom I’ve requested answers from have had a chance to respond.
[Update: yes, there is a part three. and it's the big Kahuna. it is already written and posted. However, it is marked private to give all three participants of this saga an opportunity to review and rebut. Link coming soon.]
Tags: SecondLife, Law, Blogs
Filed under: Socially Disgraceful | 28 Comments
Tags: Legal, Second Life
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Nice writing style. Looking forward to reading more from you.
Chris Moran
“Comparison images are not proof”
1) How did Minnu Palen prove the “rip offs” of the MM Skins she was protesting against in the past?
2) How did the protestors prove the facts before they demonstrated with big signs in public and posted pictures and names in blogs?
I mean, since “benefit of doubt is by law. Burden of proof is on those making the accusation.”
Hey Ari, the simple fact too, is that an artist who purchases stock material to create a product has almost zero case against another artist who uses the same stock material, who also paid for it. The owner of the stock material may have a case if it was proved that one of the artists obtained the material in an illegal manner but one artist taking off after another for producing similar work from the same reference material? That is just plain stupid.
If two artist buy the same stock photo of the Efiel Tower and produce similar paintings they will not have a legal case against each other. This is the chance you take when you work from stock materials. This last year I instituted a massive ad campaign using the image of a young woman from istock. I was working for a $600m community business bank. The image was used so as to illicit a response from a particular age and social bracket. A month into this ad blitz (TV, print, sides of buses etc etc) An LA based healthy living magazine uses the exact same image from istock to appeal to the exact same audience. Could we have told them to stop? No freaking way! Unless you buy exclusive rights to stock material then you run the risk of someone else using the same material in a similar manner. Forget for a moment the products in question are different enough that it takes significant manipulation for each to meet the required goal. You cannot just drop a 3rd or 4th generation Poser skin onto an SL mesh. Yes the base SL mesh is a P2 person but there is a WORLD of difference.
I don’t know Tenshi, or of Tenshi. I am told by a reliable fashionista that this person has an ax to grind against Minnu. I am familiar with the work of Danae, I am involved in that 3D community and have been for several years and I am an MM customer. I think that this is going to be good press for everyone involved since now all the readers will flock to the individual stores to peruse the product in question. I think that if this does go to litigation then Danae’s legal fees are going cost more than the entire dust up is worth and someone is going to end looking like a moron for shouting fire in a crowded theater.
Unfortunately Tenshi’s personal axe to grind has completely overshadowed so much of this that it becomes hard to untangle what is actually happening here. It’s especially unfortunate for Danae, who chose someone, probably without realizing, who’s word and real motives can’t be trusted, as the SL community has learned over time.
I was appalled to read that Tenshi had been adamant about finding out what kind of effect her blog postings had on the sales of some of the content creators she has (possibly) libeled on her blog. If that doesn’t prove malicious intent, I don’t know what does. There’s a difference between reporting facts and firring off at the mouth on your personal blog because you want to affect someone’s income. Tenshi continually represents her word as fact, often using words like “piracy” and “cease and desists” etc. Those she is potentially libelling can attempt to defend themselves, their businesses and their livelyhoods via blog postings or legal venues.
My question is, what can we do as a community about someone like this?
@ Chris – thank you. I really appreciate that. :)
@ Morph – I don’t have the answers for you. I can only call it as I see it. As for the comparison imagery in question, for me it is inconclusive. But that’s for me.
@ Mace – very goof comments and I concur. I am hearing the sames things with regard to Tenshi penchant for axes to grind. But I don’t know her. I know of her, and I respect her as a writer (even if I don’t agree necessarily with her style.)
@ Maria – this is unfortunately true. It’s one of the resaons why I am trying to approach the same situation from a different angle. Yes, I started with Tenshi’s article, but as we all can see, this has grown into a much larger thing. [sighs along with all other reasonable people].
“You cannot just drop a 3rd or 4th generation Poser skin onto an SL mesh”
yes you can. IF you have the right software. (Max, Modo, Lightwave, Maya, etc)
Oh, well… I’ll just have to show people how :P
It’s called baking high res to a low res mesh, and its standard practice for baking normal mapping and high resolution details on lower res game characters.
The irony is, if Minnu had freaking used a merchant resource and NOT a poser texture which is expressly licensed only for use in renders, she’d have had no problems at all.
add: V4 is more difficult than V3 to bake onto the sl av, because V3 is based on an older Zygote mesh (basically a higher rez version of Victoria 1/2) and V4 is all new geometry. Think of the SL Ruth as Vicky’s ugly cousin.
@ Maria & all: “My question is, what can we do as a community about someone like this?”
Are you asking about what you as a community could do about Tenshi?
Before anything is clear? Before anything is proven?
You might like Tenshi or not but she used the right of free speech and free press and posted informations that was given to her.
I ask you a question:
What did the community do about people who “ripped off” skins of MMS and other designers?
1) Did the community ask for Photoshop Files?
2) Did the community keep silence till everything was proven?
3) Did the community create a sumptuous questionnaire for Minnu Palen and other skin designers because “benefit of doubt is by law. Burden of proof is on those making the accusation”?
Or did the community started actions against stores and owners with blogging “comparison images”, demonstrating in front of stores and telling people around the grid not to buy there because the owner would be a thief because it was ‘obviously’ to the community that the skins were stolen?
Why does the community call it witch-hunt when a 3D designer & artist who worked about several month on a skin thinks that she recognizes her work in the skins of MM Skins?
Why is it wrong if those hard working woman feels really bad and hurt about what she saw sent comparison images to a blogger maybe because she was upset and uptight about that case?
Isn’t it because we are talking here about the in Second Life popular and famous Minnu Palen?
Isn’t it wrong that the new Glam World webpage went online while the community were asking for a statement and the press center and blog on that page are still empty?
Some words like: “We are aware of the accusations of this and that and all we can say for now is that my / our lawyers are in touch with the opposite and that we will post the news here as soon as we can say more.”
This would have been at least semi professional because this is a serious real life issue and we are talking about thousands of thousands real life dollars here.
It is not Tenshi or any other of the community who are damaging MMS’ reputation. It is like MMS acts in this situation that damages the image of Glam World.
@morph
“Are you asking about what you as a community could do about Tenshi?Before anything is clear? Before anything is proven?”
Isn’t that exactly what Tenshi is doing? Accusing people of being unlawful before anything is proven?
Two wrongs do not make a right. At the very least we can boycott her blog, and also issues like this on blogs like this, which allow for a freer dialogue than hers does, which from what I understand is heavily moderated in her favor.
Typo above (sorry)! Should read: also DISCUSS issues like this, on blogs like this.
bow chicka wow wow
Ok, yes Hypatia you can bake a V4 texture onto an SL mesh and it will look like total and complete ass. The Ruth mesh is not related to Vicky it is, at heart, a P2 mesh with almost total different geometry, joint params and material zones.
“The irony is, if Minnu had freaking used a merchant resource and NOT a poser texture which is expressly licensed only for use in renders, she’d have had no problems at all.”
Now according to my info Minnu worked from the same source material as Danae. They bought and worked from the same stock photography from 3DSK. That is what I read and what I was told. Are you saying, Hypatia, that you know for sure and for certain that Minnu used Danae’s work directly? If so, how do you know that?
Well according to Danae the skin claimed to be copied is made up from several sources. The chances of Minnu using exactly the same sources for all the areas that Danae claims to have been copied, are highly improbable. Look at the images that Danae provides for comparison, she claims that they were sourced from different models. All Minnu needs to do to prove Danae wrong is to provide the photographs of the ONE model that she used as a photosource… simple as that.
Someone is accusing Minnu of copying their work.. Why is she being so quiet? Most innocent people would get annoyed at such an accusation.
Danae is a highly respected creator in the Renderosity community, why would she want to stir stuff up in SL? She is not an avatar, she’s a REAL person, who sells her work in the REAL WORLD. The most damming evidence she provided was by using an SL mesh to create a similar geometry which she used in Poser to model her skin… the two were unquestionably alike.
So many days and not a word from the accused. Maybe she is hoping that it will go away. If she is guilty, then she would do best by resigning her business; the earlier the better. The longer she leaves it, the worse it will be for her. She can close up and walk away or stay and deal with the consequences.
This is a classic case of the lone artist versus the corporate bigwig. Although they are both individuals, one is a clever money hungry exploiter, while the other is the victim of a terrible theft. Anyone who believes in artistic expression, rather than capitalist exploitation should support the artist.
@ #2 Morph: Update. I have spoken with Minnu regarding this and it was easily explained. However, because of the silence imposed by legal council, we spoke off the record. Suffice it to say that question was answered for me satisfactorily.
@ Rob – [smiles]
“Although they are both individuals, one is a clever money hungry exploiter, while the other is the victim of a terrible theft. Anyone who believes in artistic expression, rather than capitalist exploitation should support the artist.”
Tomorrow, you will see how mis-taken this statement. is. For now, I’ll leave it at that.
@ morph
The Glam World site had been down for weeks, as you can see by MMS former employee Phoenix Chapman’s request on April 20: http://belessstupid.wordpress.com/2008/04/20/2008-sl-footwear-expo/ – I don’t know when the decision to remake the site was made, but the current version is completely different to the site that was online earlier in the year.
To better supply you with facts, Minnu was not contacted prior to the story running, t she was contacted the day after by Tenshi encouraging her to run a statement on Minnu’s personal blog.
@ morph, Minnu didn’t take a comparison picture as evidence or proof of ripped off skins, in fact the situation that I was brought into actually had Minnu and the accused passing files via email to compare, in which proved that even though the skins looked almost identical in photographs, they weren’t at all the same in actual files. Backing up even further that taking pictures side by side is very deceiving.
I just hope everyone realizes, like all of my comments on this subject before have stated.. make sure you are very clear in stating these are only your opinions.. bc in fact that is what they are. Anything that resembles you trying to report a truth, or making statements as though you have facts to back you up, can and might be held against you. You can’t take back words.. which is something a lot of us learn from blogging/ comments. It’s a mistake we all make. (myself included)
Im guessing that all of the commentaries do not have any hard facts to back them up. None of us have had access to anyones files unless Minnu or Danae have personally handed them over or you obtained them some magical way. Sure we are all entitled to our opinions, but should keep in mind that accusing someone, defamation of reputation, libel statements, etc. can pull us all in further than most of us would like to find ourselves. And don’t laugh, sure maybe we haven’t seen a case like that within the SL community thus far, but there’s always a first for everything, no?
Also, I’m continuing to read so many comments that are personal attacks on both sides of the support walls. If this is such a serious matter, you would hope that people that wanted to state their opinions (and be taken serious) would try to be as adult-like as possible. It’s no wonder that this has become so off course and viscous.
This is a very serious matter, when people are pulling in lawyers, and other authorities, it can and most likely will effect the way we know SL’s fashion community. Regardless of the outcome, I’m sure things are going to be heavily microscoped for a while. I keep seeing other creators commenting on how they are nervous to put anything out due to the careless accusations that keep popping up. I really do hope that things settle soon, personally SL has been so full of drama in the past few months its beginning to loose its whimsy. I don’t know about you guys, but I enjoy SL mostly bc it doesn’t bring the stress and hardships of RL along with it. My stress from SL has always been made up of too many fun things to do, not enough time.
Anyways, ty again for posting a mature view on the subject, however, I’m going to agree with you that the best way to get to the bottom of this is to wait and see what the results are. This endless commenting by us not involved only drags in the drama and steers us further from the real subject at hand.
p.s. the GLAM website has been down for days prior to the accusations.. it was being redesigned. It has absolutely nothing to do with this story, and was put back up as scheduled. Another example of assumptions that make ppl look pretty silly when they are way off course. It was contracted to be up before the next issue of GLAM would be published. There most likely won’t be a statement made bc yes she was instructed to handle this in a certain manner via legal council.
also- I wrote my comment wrong above- Tenshi wanted Minnu to have a place to write her statement since GLAM’s blog was down- not to post on GLAM’s. I apologize for that coming out backwards.
I have completed my third article earlier this afternoon, which I never even thought there should be a second.
I am holding it now. it’s already published, but marked private. so no one can access it yet.
I have invited Minnu, Tenshi and Danae to preview the article and, if they choose, to comment. I have told them I will place their comments at the end of and as part of that article and without any commentary or editing from me whatsoever. That they may have the last word, so to speak.
If I don’t hear from them within 24-hours of the invitation, I expect to publish tomorrow at about 6 p.m. Pacific Time, U.S.
I am hoping to kill this ridiculous situation once and for all. Unfortunately, I suspect another will pop-up next week or the week after. I plan to duck and hopefully avoid it completely. :)
@ Maria:
“Isn’t that exactly what Tenshi is doing? Accusing people of being unlawful before anything is proven?”
If Minnu Palen was unlawful in this case is topic of a court. All this huge texts about TOS’ and copyrights, derivatives and what exactly is allowed and what is not is nothing but a smoke grenade. It does not concern us.
But it is obviously to a lot of people that Minnu Palen copied (legal or illegal) and that a lot of things she told in the past are ‘not’ true. It is obviously that she copied that much from Danaes work, that Minnu Palen is ‘not’ the unique and talented skin designer she pretends. And thats a point that concerns us all.
And while we are wairing for some clarity the Minnu Model Skins / Glam World Management remains silent. They relaunched the new Glam World Webpage with a blog and “press center”.
Aradia Dielli said the blog is not up yet and that would be the reason for no official statment. But the “press center” is up. For 2 days now. Isn’t it a slap in the face of at least the Second Life fashion community that they just go further like nothing happened?
And yes. It was Minnu Palen and friends who started big campaings against skin thefts without any evidences. No one sent her a “A), B), C), D)” questionaire at this time.
Now, that Minnu Palen is accused to steal skins we can read stuff like “benefit of doubt is by law. Burden of proof is on those making the accusation” and “comparison images are not proof”.
For the Second Life Community comparison images were a proof in the past and so they are now. Nothing changed meanwhile but Minnu Palen is on the other side now.
Also in the past, it was totally okay do demonstrate in front of stores and tell everyone in-world or in many many blogs not to buy skins and stuff at this store or from this person. And all that because it was ‘obviously’ that the skins was ripped off.
Nothing has changed just because Minnu Palen is the person who is accused to stole skins.
“Two wrongs do not make a right. At the very least we can boycott her blog, and also issues like this on blogs like this, which allow for a freer dialogue than hers does, which from what I understand is heavily moderated in her favor.”
You can do what you like in this case. It is your very own decision. And maybe it would be a start if the Minnu Model Skin managment starts to pass a statment on their blog or “press center”. Not to the details but what is happening. In a few words. That would be professional.
But acting like that they will lose all their reputation. The rest of it.
And last but not least: Tenshi does nothing but using her right of free speech and press reporting an issue that Minnu Palen tries to sweep under the carpet.
And just for the record: I never had anything against Minnu Palen nor Glam World. But what I saw in the past few days changed my mind totally.
Glam World lost a lot of glam in the last days. And this is not because Tenshi posted the email of the original creator of the skins. It is because I could experience that Minnu Palen is ‘not’ original, nor professional nor does any of her stuff know the right way to communicate to the masses in a situation like this.
I’m not going to make any judgements, just provide what I know as a professional 3D modeller and texturer.
It clearly looks that on Danae’s skin, the bellybutton has not been photosourced but modelled within a 3D application, either using displacement mapping or direct manipulation of the mesh.
The same too with the veins on Danae’s foot; they clearly have been bump-mapped withing a 3D application to give them a more 3 dimensional feel.
Danae’s lips are likely photosourced, but the highlights of the gloss on the lips would not be possible in real life – it looks like a separate specular map was used to produce the bright spots you see.
The skin cell texture itself is very high quality in Danae’s work, but it has the trademark ‘CG effect’ which has a very minute bump mapping applied to it to exagerate the skin look.
To summarize, even if Danae has photosourced, most of her work has been processed through a 3D application like 3d Studio Max or Maya to add a secondary level of detail, ie. shadows, specular, bump, diffuse, and displacement maps. These particular details are unique to the 3D work and is determined by where the artist has placed his light sources within the scene.
And as a 3D professional texturer, I’m assuming that Danae will take the original source photo and edit it in photoshop to remove the original highlights created by the studio lighting in order to bake a more realistic skin with her own lighting setup within the 3D application.
Actually, Rob, statistically speaking, the person who is lying is more likely to exhibit anger than the person who is innocent. Psych 101. I wouldn’t say that Danae is all that well respected. She produces moodily lit renders of the victoria model (what ever flavor) and her contributions to the community are a bit above average (at best) in quality and totally lacking in originality. Frankly, at this point I sort of hope someone does litigate so that all us gossip mongers can get the straight story. This is better than a soap opera.
Seriously, stop talking about me.
…just a thought, which I have also expressed at Renderosity once (just to have the thread closed by an Admin because they, obviously, ran out of answers…):
If you purchase a ’skin texture’ set at Renderosity for a V4, and actually RENDER IMAGES with it – like, from front, back, sides, bottom etc – and THEN use those RENDERED images with a software like, say, DeepPaint3D – just as you would with reference photos, btw – to create a skin for an SL avatar….
…this would DEFINITELY not be against Rendo’s EULA, because you’re allowed to use the skin textures from Rendo for “personal and commercial renders”. Which the above workflow indicates – the RENDERED images of the skin texture on the V4 model would be used to create the skin for SL, NOT the skin texture of the V4 model itself.
I’ve been working with Poser for over 8 years now. I’ve been creating textures for Poser for about the same time. I KNOW how that works.
In fact, I’ve used in one case the exactly same technique to ‘translate’ one of my own Poser skin textures to an SL avie skin. And in my humble and not necessarily relevant opinion, it’s a legit use of the rendered images of Poser models because that’s, basically, what the EULA states.
Contact me if you want to know more about that workflow, I’ll be most happy to even provide a video.
Best wishes,
N. Wunderlich
LOL!
OF COURSE! IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE!
I wish I had thought of that in any one the three articles. You are absolutely correct in your description. And the Renderosity EULA does allow the materials to be used as the buyer sees fit.
Period.
I have yet to see anyone actually debunk my proof in article part three. No one has, because it is indebunkable as written. I’ll run all the way to court with that.
But here’s the kicker: these artists like Danae should get SMART and license their work specifically with someone like Minnu and turn the situation to their advantage. The same for IMVU, There.com and all the rest.
Instead, Danae has only succeeded in making herself look bad in all of this. There is a story about Playboy going around in SL finding all the infringing instances of their logos.
What they are doing is talking with the creators who [were] illegally using their logo. Then making a deal, that if a commission is paid to Playboy for using their logo, they will be licensed to use the logo!
*THAT* is the appropriate way to handle an SL “infringement.”
“But here’s the kicker: these artists like Danae should get SMART and license their work specifically with someone like Minnu and turn the situation to their advantage.”
No, Danae & Co. should get smart and create skins for SL themselves. Period.
They’re damn good at it in Poser, and SL is basically the same work, just that the textures are tinier (even the HUGE 1024×1024 textures in SL are a joke compared to, say, 4000×4000 for Poser…).
I bet they would be a HUGE success in SL :-)
Exactly. :)